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Jun 17, 2022
5:23
:30
pm
Division Bell
Voted best poster 3 years in a
Liquidity concerns. Usually better at young ages to allow the cash to build. Still, I advise most people to go with term
and invest the difference.
This message has been modified
Originally posted on Jun 17, 2022 at 5:23:30pm
Message modified by Division Bell on Jun 17, 2022 at 5:24:31pm
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Division Bell
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BluePete
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Division Bell
Joined
Jul 20, 2002
Last login
Sep 20, 2024
Total posts
98,469 (19,298 FO)
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Messages
Author
Time
Okay financial gurus, am I stupid and being scammed?
YSMACK
6/17/22 4:58pm
Don't do it. His commission is enormous. He's not advising you in your best interests.
mulletino
6/17/22 5:01pm
This. Ask him if he has a fiduciary duty to you. And if he did, would that
ebv
6/17/22 5:03pm
If someone is making $500k plus a yr would it make sense? $750k? Just wondering
kotacoug
6/17/22 5:07pm
Almost certainly not, and probably not, unless those people also had a huge
kos
6/17/22 5:18pm
It’s not as much of a function of income as it is situation. To simply answer your question, the answer is no.
RdF3
6/17/22 5:18pm
No.
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:25pm
^This. Your "private wealth manager" does not have your best interest in mind,
kos
6/17/22 5:04pm
^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 5:16pm
RE: ^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^
ebv
6/17/22 5:24pm
I am not a big fan of whole life insurance.
Zoobieman
6/17/22 5:42pm
Someone else making money is NOT a good reason to not do something!
HTCougar
6/17/22 5:58pm
True. Not necessarily saying it makes this thing a good product but true
JollyGreenGiant
6/17/22 6:01pm
Yes. It is. His advice will be biased. In this case - biased to your detriment.
Cougarbib
6/17/22 9:10pm
That is short-sighted.
HTCougar
6/17/22 9:20pm
No. It is common sense and your comment is a sales pitch. I am not selling
Cougarbib
6/17/22 9:23pm
How would you answer the question "is the advisor acting as a fiduciary?" when he sells a whole life plan?
SaturdaySpecialDay
6/17/22 9:36pm
As an FA, I endorse this message.
babybroker
6/17/22 8:40pm
There are situations where whole life makes sense, but I can almost guarantee
RexIdaCoug
6/17/22 5:01pm
I always hear this but never hear those situations, could you or someone else explain a hypothetical where it works?
JollyGreenGiant
6/17/22 5:05pm
A situation where there’s liquidity issues with the estate with a passing or estate tax issues.
RdF3
6/17/22 5:05pm
Estate tax issues like having to pay a lot? Or more complicated than that
JollyGreenGiant
6/17/22 5:07pm
A situation where the estate value is above the estate exclusion so if structured correctly the death benefit
RdF3
6/17/22 5:13pm
This. Like a charitable remainder trust situation
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:30pm
If you are in a situation where the estate tax could come into play, whole life
RexIdaCoug
6/17/22 5:08pm
Liquidity concerns. Usually better at young ages to allow the cash to build. Still, I advise most people to go with term
Division Bell
6/17/22 5:23pm
Charitable Remainder Trust - then use the funds from that to buy whole life for
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:30pm
How many people who are sold whole life are in this category? Probably less
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 5:38pm
Exactly. He asked for an example. This is the example and it is for very wealthy
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:44pm
One way to view it can be
InlandEmpYre
6/17/22 9:26pm
Term insurance makes sense for most people. Full life insurance does not.
Cougarbib
6/17/22 9:32pm
Family Bank is the only way I’ve ever seen it work. And that is mostly to pass
Nat Gas Man
6/17/22 5:11pm
I don't remember much from my Family Finance class at BYU
wannnacruise
6/17/22 5:02pm
And any universal life as a "savings" under ANY circumstance.
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 5:14pm
This should be a red flag to find a different advisor.
compcoug
6/17/22 5:03pm
Sounds like northwestern mutual. Am I right or am I right?
RdF3
6/17/22 5:05pm
You are right.
YSMACK
6/17/22 5:05pm
You need a new advisor.
allaboutthegainz
6/17/22 5:06pm
Got involved with those guys and I will never work with them again.
RexIdaCoug
6/17/22 5:11pm
Almost took an internship with them until they wanted me to give referrals of my
allaboutthegainz
6/17/22 5:13pm
Without a doubt. You need to move on.
babybroker
6/17/22 8:42pm
Run away. Now. Join the Bogleheads forum and learn some personal finance.
ebv
6/17/22 5:07pm
Bogleheads for the win!
Kid_A
6/17/22 6:56pm
The MLM of the finance industry.
allaboutthegainz
6/17/22 5:08pm
I have some whole life because my father in law was a life insurance agent and
BYU-Ite
6/17/22 5:06pm
So you're going to cost yourself thousands of dollars to keep the peace?
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 5:13pm
I already spent thousands of $s more and it was worth every cent to me. He is
BYU-Ite
6/17/22 5:16pm
Sorry but no way I would put my retirement at risk over keeping a bad policy and
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 5:18pm
You don’t get rid of whole life once you’ve already paid the front-end load fees
BYU-Ite
6/17/22 5:22pm
First you need to be insurable with another policy. Then I do a 1035 Exchange
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 5:40pm
Right. Cash value after penalties - then U get a commission on the new
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:47pm
Yes and I would make 1/10th the commission doing that as opposed to this whole
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 8:57pm
No need. Again, the fees have been paid. It is now just invested like all my
BYU-Ite
6/17/22 9:09pm
Only way "fees have been paid" would be if it were a paid up plan.
SoValleyCOUG
6/18/22 12:15am
They are front loaded.
Cougarbib
6/18/22 12:33am
No argument. I said that already. But you missed that the fees were front loaded
BYU-Ite
6/18/22 9:12am
So if we bought the same car, but I paid $5k for it and you paid $50k for it,
SoValleyCOUG
6/18/22 9:25am
If I saved a relationship with my father in law- yeah. Relationships and people
BYU-Ite
6/18/22 12:13pm
Well if you have money to burn that's a good attitude to have.
SoValleyCOUG
6/18/22 3:27pm
Same car? That's hilarious.
HTCougar
6/18/22 3:32pm
Yea it's literally can be that % of a difference between whole life and term.
SoValleyCOUG
6/18/22 8:01pm
Problem is it's not the same car.
HTCougar
6/18/22 8:56pm
A death benefit on term pays the same as a death benefit on whole life.
SoValleyCOUG
6/18/22 9:10pm
I am not an expert.
HTCougar
6/18/22 9:59pm
Most life insurance companies will tell their agents whole life is Rolls Royce
SoValleyCOUG
6/18/22 11:43pm
Again, very little of this is true.
HTCougar
6/19/22 11:26am
It is clear that you do not even know what term vs whole life insurance means.
Cougarbib
6/19/22 12:46pm
In 20 years of being a licensed agent, my experience is the majority of
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 1:24pm
More likely they just don't take the time to get educated
HTCougar
6/19/22 2:22pm
They rely on the wholesalers "training" which again is a lot of half truths.
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 2:58pm
Guaranteed renewal doesn't guarantee the price
HTCougar
6/19/22 2:21pm
In those cases I drop the base to a $1,000 and add a rider if they are insurable
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 2:56pm
Except it doesn’t. Many of us outgrow the need for it, but, it was there if I
Cougarbib
6/19/22 4:38pm
I've met with thousands of people over my 20 year career and not one of them
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 5:18pm
Maybe it's the people you're meeting with. Hmmmmm
HTCougar
6/19/22 6:05pm
Tell me 1 person you know who is living off the cash value of their life policy.
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 8:49pm
That's an ignorant response.
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 1:22pm
How does it put anything at risk?
YSMACK
6/17/22 5:36pm
That is the problem - U can’t just get out in a second without penalty. Don’t
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:34pm
I would actually advise against using your term insurance until you are very old
HandwovenBox
6/17/22 5:14pm
My FIL had a life insurance policy with a cash value
RexIdaCoug
6/17/22 5:16pm
This is absolutely true in pretty much every case. I agree.
BYU-Ite
6/17/22 5:18pm
Wow. That’s brutal
kotacoug
6/17/22 6:46pm
Yea you're a sucker if you buy into that. Buy term, invest the difference is bet
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 5:12pm
Vanguard Target Fund. Set it and forget it. Save yourself a bunch of $$
kotacoug
6/17/22 5:18pm
That would be a better alternative.
SoValleyCOUG
6/17/22 6:46pm
Ask him: "With respect to your advice on this whole life policy, are you a fiduciary?" and post his response here.
SaturdaySpecialDay
6/17/22 5:17pm
Insurance agents don’t have that requirement by law
SwanSong
6/17/22 10:19pm
And this is the problem, which many clients don’t understand.
SaturdaySpecialDay
6/18/22 7:32am
Hint: he gets a commission or referral fee when you buy that whole life
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:24pm
Doesn't sound like a guy I'd want to be taking advice from.
grosven
6/17/22 5:27pm
Probably don’t do it but if you are maxing out every other possible
1981coug
6/17/22 5:27pm
Find someone who sells Iul not whole life .
barebones
6/17/22 5:42pm
Alert: find someone who sells absolutely nothing whatsoever. Pure, unbiased
Cougarbib
6/17/22 5:46pm
IUL is just as bad
RdF3
6/17/22 5:55pm
No it is not . Done right it has out performed pretty much any 401k .
barebones
6/17/22 11:02pm
<< Deleted >>
RdF3
6/17/22 11:06pm
Refer me to a financial advisor not selling products or getting commissions or
Cougarbib
6/18/22 12:37am
Why? Do you get paid at your job?
barebones
6/19/22 3:37pm
He's not asking for advisors to work for free. He asked for one that doesn't
OlanchoCoug
6/19/22 3:55pm
Exactly This!
Cougarbib
6/19/22 4:44pm
No idea what u said, but the Whole Life guys claim it is “free advice” when they
Cougarbib
6/19/22 4:43pm
What do you do for work?
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 4:23pm
I am retired, sort of. I was a CIO of a few very large corporations before I
Cougarbib
6/19/22 4:59pm
You should put some of your funds into safe money options.
SoValleyCOUG
6/19/22 5:28pm
I didn’t mention my cash accounts. But, I don’t need safe money options. The
Cougarbib
6/19/22 8:02pm
I like your unorthodox way. Looks like you have a grasp on your financial home.
SoValleyCOUG
6/20/22 10:51am
The one thing I like about whole life is the ability to borrow against it later
byujdmba
6/17/22 5:48pm
You can do the same thing in a taxable account but with a bigger arbitrage potential.
RdF3
6/17/22 5:55pm
DON'T LISTEN TO ANSWERS FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW YOU!
HTCougar
6/17/22 6:05pm
Millions of people can't be wrong
darkcoug
6/17/22 6:08pm
He hasn't necessarily been duped, he's just working with someone who has....
IGlowInTheDark
6/17/22 6:09pm
<< Deleted >>
RdF3
6/17/22 6:11pm
Haha I think we’ve found the whole life sales guy
kotacoug
6/17/22 6:15pm
Maybe we should have him present his numbers on a typical policy sale….
kotacoug
6/17/22 6:24pm
Sounds like you’re looking for misinformation, friend.
ebv
6/17/22 6:40pm
If you like Whole Life, you must be a salesman. How stupid!
HTCougar
6/17/22 10:02pm
Tell me about special benefit only found in whole life & I’ll respond with another & better way to do it.
RdF3
6/17/22 10:16pm
Here is your chance to shine and show how stupid everyone else is… go ahead and
kotacoug
6/17/22 10:22pm
I'll say it again, I don't sell Whole Life
HTCougar
6/17/22 10:59pm
Why should they ask a WL salesman when they could ask an objective advisor who
Cougarbib
6/18/22 12:45am
Where are you getting that the only complaint is that there's a high commission?
kos
6/18/22 7:32pm
I've never meant to say people in here don't know;
HTCougar
6/18/22 7:52pm
Terrible metaphor. WL is a poor investment vehicle for nearly everyone. If u
Cougarbib
6/18/22 8:48pm
Walmart buys (or used to) WL on employees.
HTCougar
6/18/22 8:59pm
Walmart is a huge corporation and huge corporations often buy insurance
Cougarbib
6/18/22 9:07pm
Why is it a bad metaphor?
HTCougar
6/18/22 9:06pm
Because motorcycles and busses are both commonly the right solution for
Cougarbib
6/18/22 9:12pm
Maybe it's possible that you're not as smart as you think you are.
HTCougar
6/18/22 10:04pm
I am wondering if it is possible for you to explain one example where whole life
Cougarbib
6/18/22 11:23pm
^ Yup this. Please, just give us one example. You haven’t even done that, you’ve
kos
6/19/22 1:12pm
My recommendation would be paying for objective advice from a financial
Cougarbib
6/18/22 12:42am
What is your commission rate on selling whole life. The advice that is good
Cougarbib
6/17/22 9:17pm
He asked. Think. This is not a moral issue. It’s a matter of opinion, and he is
canofpicante
6/18/22 12:30am
There seems to be a lot of misinformation on this board about whole life...
Real Men Wear Blue
6/17/22 8:36pm
If you actually believe that to be true, please point out specifics of misinformation.
RdF3
6/17/22 8:52pm
(It’s a joke from the “misinformation” post about solar the other week)
ebv
6/18/22 7:27am
Whole life is the product that makes the advisors the most money. That should
canofpicante
6/17/22 9:52pm
So much of this is wrong!
HTCougar
6/18/22 10:09pm
The exact commission paid to the agent on the contract should be a disclosed line item on the contract.
RdF3
6/18/22 10:22pm
Ok.
HTCougar
6/18/22 10:25pm
This. Then watch sales plummet.
Cougarbib
6/18/22 11:32pm
Great heading, because everything you wrote in the body is nonsense spin.
Cougarbib
6/18/22 11:30pm
I'm still interested to learn your response to the several questions on this thread about whether an agent acts as a
SaturdaySpecialDay
6/19/22 9:28am
He is going to continue to dodge that question.
Cougarbib
6/19/22 12:47pm
Do you sell whole life? Yes or no? Full disclosure
canofpicante
6/20/22 10:11am
I do not.
HTCougar
6/20/22 11:02am
That’s good.
canofpicante
6/20/22 12:19pm
Forbes article nailed it!
Cougarbib
6/20/22 12:26pm
What/Who are the first 10 advertisers in Forbes?
HTCougar
6/20/22 2:56pm
I think you could find that as easily as I could.
canofpicante
6/20/22 4:48pm
Probably
HTCougar
6/20/22 5:29pm
Doubt that. Probably the opposite. Take another 10 seconds and find 1 respected
Cougarbib
6/20/22 6:03pm
You're making my point for me.
HTCougar
6/20/22 10:19pm
The term life insurance business advertising is hardly the exclusive driver of
Cougarbib
6/21/22 10:15am
Ya, it's really a strange argument he's making. These publications get ads from
kos
6/21/22 10:21am
I understand. I used to work for advertising agencies.
canofpicante
6/20/22 8:10pm
I'm not advocating for or against Whole Life
HTCougar
6/20/22 10:16pm
We agree.
canofpicante
6/20/22 11:48pm
The hilarious part of your educate yourself diatribe is you just dissed the most
Cougarbib
6/21/22 10:50am
This is what I tell people and other agents about whole life and Universal Life.
SoValleyCOUG
6/21/22 11:09am
I actually don't disagree with a lot of your post
HTCougar
6/21/22 12:01pm
*advice
RdF3
6/20/22 3:01pm
Thanks
canofpicante
6/20/22 3:56pm
He probably bought it and is trying to justify his choice.
kos
6/20/22 11:52am
Exactly right
SoValleyCOUG
6/20/22 9:01pm
This seems most likely since he claims not to sell it.
Cougarbib
6/21/22 10:52am
Insurance is to protect wealth, investments are to grow it
SwanSong
6/17/22 10:15pm
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